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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and only me
today Joseph is on honeymoon and gatri
will be back from maternity leave next
week God willing I have a long history
with Pakistan I hold the country's two
highest civil Awards the halali kaasm
for my work on the restoration of
democracy in the country in the 1980s
and the halali Pakistan for my work on
the issue of Kashmir over more than 30
years I have the closest possible
relationship with pakistanis in Britain
too and so events unfolding there now
are of the greatest possible interest to
me but also should be to you the old war
horse now Sharif is back in office if
not in power as prime minister again the
last time he was prime minister the Army
overthrew him and they just might be
about to do so again the proximate cause
is a mass Uprising in involving hundreds
of thousands of people on the streets of
the capital Islamabad alleging
corruption cronyism and incompetence
most pakistanis think the protesters may
have a point this street power though
doesn't have the international support
of some other recent examples but that
doesn't mean it's doomed to fail joining
us to try to make sense of it all is
moraza Ali sha a famous uk-based
Pakistani journalist and broadcaster
moraza thanks for joining us let's deal
with the numbers first is it a mass
Uprising are there hundreds of thousands
of people there are actually thousands
of people um uh it's a very significant
number of people who have come out on
the streets of Islamabad and the fact
that these people have come to the
capital of Pakistan really you know
makes it quite significant and there's
live 24/7 coverage in the whole world
actually you know watching Pakistan
is taking a keen interest in what is
unfolding in Islamabad there are two
parties which have brought their
followers to Islam Abad to uh seeking
resignation of prime minister Nas Sharif
uh religious leader Dr T kadri's party
who has with him about 30,000 plus
followers and then Imran Khan's Pakistan
tarq insaf who traveled all the way from
lore to Islamabad uh he had his like
initially camp with about 25 to 30,000
people but uh his uh sitting is kind of
different from Dr tul Kadri sitting
because Imran Khan's followers uh you
know in the morning time late at night
they go home and they assemble again in
the evening while Dr T kadri's followers
are sitting there living there and they
are constantly staying there but yes
there are very significant numbers just
a few 100 meters away from prime
minister's house which is called the Red
Zone area and uh that presence there
makes it all the more important is he
nervous the Prime Minister na Sharif
perhaps not nervous about the numbers
being able to force him out but being
able to as it were precipitate yet
another military Jun intervening you are
absolutely right I mean there is lot of
not only nervousness but uh there is
fear within you know uh the government
and opposition Circle that there may be
a bigger conspiracy at play because what
has happened here is that Imran Khan and
Kadri you know they initially said that
they are two very different actors you
know not acting in unison or anything
like that but they left lore on the same
day they arrived at the same time and
then they started their March from
Islamabad to breach the Red Zone which
was prohibited by the Supreme Court and
by the Pakistani government they have so
far almost acted in junan and that is
what makes prime minister Nas Sharif and
including the main opposition parties
kind of nervous they believe that there
are probably some forces you know though
one of those hidden hands who maybe you
know pulling their strings so far it
looks that there is certain section
within the Pakistan establishment which
is supporting these elements but NAD
Sharif has met the chief of Army staff
General rahil Sharif his brother shabas
shif has met him today Nas sh appeared
before Pakistan National Assembly he had
grin on grin on his face he looked
confident and the National Assembly
unanimously today has passed a
resolution rejecting the
unconstitutional illegal demands made by
Imran Khan and Dr tul Kadri now viewers
will be familiar with Imran Khan
formerly a great uh International
cricketer uh reformed his life became a
kind of islamist uh leader has several
times now promised to break through into
power in Pakistan but not managed to do
so but probably most people will not
have heard of the second fellow he's a
Canadian citizen tell us about him
what's his religious political agenda
well Dr Kadri actually he comes from
very humble beginnings he used to work
for a religious school which was run by
sh's family Nas sh and shabas sharif's
family and then he set up he is from
moderate Sunni section of Islam he's not
one of those extremist he's one of those
peers and you know holy spiritual
figures uh but the difference between
him and other you know spiritual figures
is that now Dr Kadri you know he wants
to get into power but what does he want
to do with it has he got an agenda well
he only he probably has an agenda but he
does not know how to get into Power
because the last time he stood in
elections he won only one seat and he
later on on he you know submitted
resignation and he left Pakistan he
sought asylum in Canada so Dr Kadri
wants to get into power but he knows
that if he goes to the elections he
cannot win but again he wants into power
so he wants some sort of military CP he
wants some sort of intervention from
Divine forces or from military
establishment for from so who whosoever
whichever power who could actually put
him into power now that is where he gets
very confused and the people like you
know his followers are there but the
rest of the Pakistan is not take him
seriously he has very good words to say
he talks you know a lot of makes a lot
of sense about a lot of things that he
says but everybody understand that he
does not have the power or you know the
number of people that are required to
put him in through a legitimate
Democratic process so he wants some kind
of you know a new Pakistan where through
a miracle he could get into power that
is not going to happen as long as
Pakistan is a functioning Democratic
country if there is a coup if there is
you know kind of an you know a massive
Uprising or a situation where the whole
system is put upside down that is the
only chance kri has on the other hand
Imran Khan has a large number of you
know genuine followers he has been
through political process now he has a
lot of presence in Pakistan National
Assembly he won elections in in one of
the most crucial provinces of Pakistan
kabar pakun which borders Afghanistan he
has a government there now the very you
know interesting thing here is that
Imran has power in one Province he is
crying that there has been Mass skill
rigging in elections he's not talking
about the province which he rules but he
believes that there has been rigging in
Punjab believes he was cheated in laor
and cheated also in Karachi the whole
struggle is actually about Punjab and
that's where he's focusing on because
you know the power base in Pakistan is
Punjab he Imran Khan Frankly Speaking
did not want to rule Pon he won it and
he's in a state of dilemma I mean you
know he has to now do something it's
quite a hot potato
ruling now we both know uh sadly that
for almost exactly half of its existence
Pakistan has lived under military rule
yeah uh so governments come to power and
habitually they're then overturned and
there's a period of military rule
followed by return to democracy and so
on as regular as
Clockwork that uh process by which you
said Sharif met the chief of Army staff
and had a smile on his face there have
been other Pakistani leaders who have
met Chiefs of Staff and emerged with
smile on their face only later to be
overthrown uh tell us about the chief of
Army staff is he the kind of fellow that
might do as his predecessors have done
it looks difficult at this stage I mean
although it's a fact that Pakistan Army
is upset with Naas on a lot of issues
especially on the issue of Peres mashar
this is the former military Chief became
a dictator president absolutely and now
Naas sh actually is trying him through
courts and wants to indict him on
treason charges and a lot of you know
other charges that has hugely upset
Pakistan Army and uh many commentators
actually say that a lot of you know the
the movement that is going on right now
has its links with Pakistan Army's anger
with Nas's policies but the difficulty
with Pakistan Army would be that it was
you can see only recently that mashar
has been there in power and his you
know if the fact that he was in the
power there was riseing militancy in
Pakistan Pakistan went into Coalition
with America and it did not bring any
good name to Pakistan Army it looks like
that Pakistan Army will not do any
direct intervention it can be you know
soft kind of intervent intervention
through Dr Kadri and Imran Khan but uh
it will be very difficult for Pakistan
Army to actually just literally go for
an allout coup uh because that will
definitely not be accepted by the people
of Pakistan and then that makes Naas
Sharif look like a victim now the
elections were uh clear enough by
Pakistani standards Naas Sharif won them
quite handsomely yeah one of the claims
by these twin Columns of oppositionists
is that these elections were rigged were
they yes elections were not perfect uh
they were rigged in some parts but uh
they were not rigged in the the manner
that Imran Khan Imran Khan's allegation
is that elections were rigged because he
did not win if Imran Khan had won he
would not have cried you know any kind
of rigging now Imran Khan you know the
way it happened Imran Khan may have
actually I mean he does not talk I mean
pakun he won really you know a handsome
majority so he thinks that is fine
rigging took place all over Pakistan but
that was because of the flaws in
Pakistan's electoral system it's not it
does not mean that Imran Khan was
actually there was a conspiracy to rig
elections against Imran because the
rigging took place against many other
moderate parties including you know well
the muta Kumi movement and aami National
Party and Pakistan People's Party benir
bto's Party they were literally in some
areas not allowed to run election
campaign because Taliban were you know
attacking them murdering them killing
them all so there was I mean these are
like elections were really rigged in
many many ways but it does not mean that
they were rigged particularly against
Imran Khan or in favor of Shar just uh
quickly moraza is the Pakistani media
covering all that's happening in Islam
Abad are they allowed to are TV stations
being closed down and so on George
Pakistani media has not covered anything
else since this whole uh you know
movement started that is the only new
story in Pakistan nothing else matters
now many people are saying that if only
Pakistani TV channels are Switched Off
the revolution will die down but because
there is coverage 2 2 47 on two camps
and just Pakistan is really hooked to
what is happening and Imran Khan and Dr
T Kadri are aware of this fact and to
keep the people entertaining they have
introduced many live music acts you know
Bangla pop rock lot of Acts into their
uh respective crowds you know uh keep
the people and themselves entertained so
yes uh and is the weather good enough to
keep them there or it's quite hot yes
but uh it's fine it's it's better than
before well we'll watch it with interest
M do I thanks for uh enlightening us on
what's happening in Pakistan coming up
after the break we're remembering the
slave trade Britain's role in it and the
total failure to make reparation for one
of the greatest crimes of modern history
don't miss it I'll be right
back welcome back to Sputnik thousands
of African-Americans are protesting on
the streets of Ferguson Missouri and
some of them are being metaphorically
lynched by white overseers otherwise
known as the police but how did so many
Africans end up in America just like the
black people in Britain mainly from the
Caribbean they are the descendants of
slaves men and women who were Chained
and Shackled thrown into the holds of
leaking vessels sailed across the
Atlantic and sold as beasts of burden to
White plantation owners all concerned
made an unhealthy profit except for the
slaves whose lives were nasty brutish
and short on board the Sputnik today we
have historian writer and broadcaster SI
Martin who wanted to talk about unesco's
International Day for the remembrance of
the slave trade and its abolition which
is today the reason slavery Remembrance
Day is on the 23rd of August is to Mark
the anniversary of the first successful
slave Uprising it took place in
1791 in Santo Domingo now Haiti I
thought Ferguson Missouri was the
perfect backdrop in front of which to do
so tell us please if I'm right about
that are we seeing in Ferguson a part of
the legacy of the slave trade the
abolition of which we are commemorating
today yes this is a definite and very
very clear uh continuity behind the
attitudes which resulted in the rioting
in uh Ferguson and the legacy of the
slave trade and the move the buying and
selling of human beings especially in
North America we have to remember even
after being um uh even after uh partial
abolition the life of a black person was
inlaw less um a white man a white person
usually a white man had no uh need to
respect any of the rights that a black
person had and this is manifested in the
treatment of an alleged uh um
criminal or lower class uh person of
African origin like Michael Brown and in
the treatment up to including Barack
Obama who as president is just held to
much stricter laws much stricter uh
tighter focus on his behavior and his
responses than um any of his white
predecessors so we are still living with
this Legacy it's not gone yet and it's
not ancient history because Barack
Obama's father would not have been
allowed to take his lunch at the same
counter as a white person yeah in the 19
early 1960s in the late 1950s yeah I
mean this is the thing that we do forget
that it is within the lifetimes of many
of us and there's always an urge just to
try and forget to say well
1964 um um all of the civil rights
legislation which passed after that um
has drawn a curtain over it and it's
like an it's like a live rail um when
you're talking about any sorts of
histories all sorts of atoc can be
discussed freely relatively openly but
when you talk about enslavement
especially in Great Britain and in the
United States to a less degree it's
something that people Flinch away from
and um it's you know the Remembrance Day
is part of adjusting the focus on that
well uh we'll talk about Britain that's
an interesting point um but let's pause
to remember that great slave Uprising in
Haiti what is now Haiti which uh
overthrew slavery I mean there is a
tendency in the West in Britain and
elsewhere to think that slavery was
ended by benevolent old white men who
couldn't countenance such cruelty uh but
in part of course it was the threat of
Revolution abut in the slave slave areas
uh that terrified them tell us about
that Uprising oh I'd say George it's
more than the threat of Revolution it's
was the reality of it we have to
remember that every 10 to 15 years um
actually every 10 years there'd be a
major Uprising throughout the Caribbean
um or Latin America and large numbers of
white British lives were lost um so this
was a constant danger tell me about this
country because it's easy for us to
cluck cluck about the American police
shooting down black people in Ferguson
Missouri but there's a temptation to
forget that uh policemen have shot down
black people here in London and
elsewhere in brit
to what extent is the United States only
as in many things a bigger and more
Brash expression of the kind of racism
that underpin slavery than we have here
in Britain but actually not that much
different yeah this is an interesting
one because although it is different
there are very clear differences due to
the fact that there wasn't Plantation
slavery in these islands you did have
people who were enslaved but you also
had people of African origin living here
for centuries who were free and this has
sort of blurred the interpretation of um
enslavement and how African population
origin people are treated here because
slavery and slav was something that the
majority of people happened out of sight
out of mind and compounded to that you
have the reality that with the abolition
movement you have the first genuine Mass
popular movement in this country went
across classes and even reluctantly for
men of the great many of the Great and
good included women so it's a little bit
more Nuance in the United States but the
fundamental deal is still there the
fundamental elements are still in
position um who are these populations of
African origin now that um they have um
been given um a a small part of Freedom
what do we do with them how do we treat
them um what are their civil rights so
the same story does play out on both
sides of the Atlantic but one of the
major things is that in these islands we
tend to um compare ourselves constantly
with um America America seems the super
reality and um there's a very overly
favorable attitude to um the fact that
the British um uh emancipated um many of
their insl aved people in 1833 the
Americans had well they take another 33
years to do the same so there's a lot of
um self- congratulatory back patting
which goes on which really obscures the
reality that no uh enslavement did
didn't really end right there and right
then it was an ongoing long drawn out
process which was still taking Parts in
other parts of the uh British Empire and
the mentality that justified it because
clearly you could only enslave another
human being if your underlying
assumption was that he was in your
inferior you were his Superior hasn't uh
died even a century later in the United
States in Ferguson it's clear and you
could say that in uh some recent
incidents uh here in London and
elsewhere in the United Kingdom the same
mentality that black people are a
problem that has to be contained
absolutely and if necessary with gunfire
yeah I mean this couldn't be more clear
than um with your um in the incident
Illustrated in your opening remarks I
mean we've just seen um all sorts of
exotic weaponry and Firearms being used
against um the citizenry of Ferguson
Missouri but compare and contrast that
to the response at the Bundy Ranch in
Nevada where you had hundreds of white
men who were armed many of them with
automatic weapons trained on local
National and federal officials who
agreed to just reason with them
peacefully and ultimately back down and
um take the back seat in front of this
awesome display of Firepower had those
um individuals um um in Nevada been of
African origin I think we know what the
outcome would have been yeah yeah no
doubt about that and Barack Obama hasn't
made much of a difference it's a pitiful
Epitaph to a pitiful presidency that
he's looking towards the end of his term
now he's on Martha's Vineyard having a
whe of a Time whilst black people in
America are being gunned down in
Missouri yes but that's inevitable I
mean we've seen this play out time and
again during his presidency um he's does
not and he cannot feel in a position to
come out um literally all guns blazing
on the part of um his uh uh black fellow
citizens because he will be branded as a
fire brand here is someone for whom a
large portion of the American uh voting
public has enormous resentment they call
him all sorts of names he's a fascist as
well as being a socialist um he's a
Godless atheist as well as being a
Muslim um he's an elitist as well as
being a thug he is cont AED and
controlled um by public opinion and
public responses majority population
that is in the same way as the
populations on Ferguson are controlled
um by now National Guardsmen and local
police but he doesn't have to face can't
face any more elections this is true we
could be seeing now if he wanted us to
the real Barack Obama I presume I
presume that's what we are seeing uh
tell us about the UNESCO day how is it
marked what's the point of it what
should people do about it
okay um the UNESCO day for the
international um day for the remembrance
of the slave trade and its abolition is
basically a way of keeping the
conversation going it's a way of talking
about the largest forced uh mass
movement of uh people in human history
and its ongoing Legacy and impacts and
um by way of marking it um various
points around the world particularly
here in London at the national Maritime
Museum in uh Liverpool um there are a
day worth of events to just focus on the
lives that were lost and the cost that
was paid uh it's just a way of keeping
the conversation going and uh
remembering that unbelievable loss of
human life what about reparation how
stands the uh because I mean for example
the the other Holocaust yeah yeah uh
with a capital age in which millions and
millions of people
perished is subject to a lot of
reparations yeah uh Financial political
uh many other kinds of reparations the
slave trade equally a
holocaust uh remains uh unrepaired no
one has paid anything to the people who
are the descendants of those who
suffered that yes because again
underlying that difference in response
is the perceived and enforced different
in difference in value between various
populations groups and clearly you even
talking about this as I said before it's
a live wire talking and broing the
subject of this crime which is what it
was these series of crimes is
extraordinarily difficult and the
subject of reparations it comes up all
the time um CARICOM the CARICOM
countries Caribbean uh economic
Community um they drafted a set of
proposals to uh jumpstart dialogue with
European nations it was beautifully
crafted um uh full of elegant jurist
prudence and ethics and morality and all
of the other elements which are which um
entities like National governments and
um multinational companies would are
specifically formed to IGN ignore it's a
strange one this because though the
movement for reparations is growing um
within populations of African origin um
I think more tools are needed because
the tools that have been used before um
various forms of
um legal approaches the moral approach
kumb arism as I call it I'm not sure
they're going to be working you don't
think they'll ever be paying up not
based on an appeal to reason or an
appeal to Common Humanity because when
we're talking about they we are talking
about National governments and
multinational corporations who do not
respond to that who cannot well
unfortunately that's all we've got time
for remember you can follow us on
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today I've been George Galloway it's
been marvelous
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